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Topic: The Nature of Youkai (Read 2122 times) |
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Kamen
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The Nature of Youkai
« on: 06/07/06 at 11:17:20 » |
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So this topic is, in my view, an essential key stone in understanding youkai, and that is the very debate of what they are.
There are several points of view, some opposites of each other, and some, that appear to be very close to each other, are in truth very different.
Since this forum is in a youkai site, one more “academic” with an encyclopaedically point of view, this debate seems to be located in the most pertinent and impartial site to date in English language about this subject. All opinions are welcome.
There are two major points of view, and a third one that draws bits from one and the other and a forth one which is very special.
– The first one says that youkai are real. Now, the way in which they are real differs. Some say they are real creatures, and thus, approaches this to criptozoology. Others say they exist like elemental creatures, in a different space-time parallel with this one. They are close in the point that the existence of youkai is separated with the existence of humans.
– The second one says that youkai are things of the mind. This could be stories and parables, to mental conditions (like lycanthropy) and suggestion. A “MEM” if you must. So the existence of youkai is totally dependant on the existence of humans.
– The “third” one says that they are mental projections, inside ones mind, or outside of the mind. In this one has as a basis that humans are the source of youkai, but in the long run they can become independent creatures.
– The “forth” says that it’s all old wives tales, a bunch of bullocks and a complete waist of time.
Latter on I’ll try to develop several points in this, but for now I would like some comments and opinions.
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #1 on: 06/08/06 at 16:13:01 » |
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In my opinion, yokai are not real. They exist in the realm of folk culture and folklore (if there is a difference between the two). However, they are extremely interesting, not only because I am deeply interested in folklore but also because they reveal something meaningful about the Japanese mind. A great many of them, I believe, if not all, are external manifestations (maybe this isn't the right word since I don't believe they're physically real) of all the things the Japanese try to repress. They're mostly very individualistic, they're often violent and break cultural rules, taboos and stereotypes, and as someone else on this board pointed out they represent boundless freedom. So they're not completely evil, but they're definitely not good because, generally speaking, they represent the antithesis of the Japanese ideal of good behaviour.
This is how I view them in the most scientific frame of mind. However, another somewhat differing opinion I have of them is this: while one specific folk creature or a group of folk creatures as specifically described may not in reality exist, I do believe that there is, or at very least, very possibly could be, something out there, some element of the spiritual, and I believe that the behaviour of yokai is not entirely implausible in terms of describing whatever it is that may exist in the spiritual realm. But if pressed to give an absolute answer, I would have to say, no, yokai probably do not exist. But unless so pressed, I would normally say, "who knows?" They definitely exist in the imagination, and sometimes this is more significant and more important than whether or not they actually exist.
I'm not sure if this is the sort of response you were looking for. Hopefully it is.
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Tengu
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #2 on: 06/08/06 at 16:45:44 » |
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I'd love for the little buggers (and other weird supernatural things) to exist, but like dreadblue I have a fairly scientific outlook and need extraordinary proof for such an extraordinary claim. If they do exist, however, I can't blame them for hiding from humans in recent years. I mean can you imagine the impact of the tourist industry alone? 
In the meantime, they've got a bunch of very entertaining stories and art associated with them, and they make excellent metaphors for the taboo or disenfranchised elements of humanity, so I can't complain too much.
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #3 on: 06/08/06 at 17:05:28 » |
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Indeed it was, although I was kind of waiting to get more answers.
So your point of view is a valid one. Let me say this: A very valid and good one.
So, in basis, the youkai in your opinion are basically dependant of humans. They exist as a sort of escape.
This is interesting if you try to establish regional youkai, and especially, Youkai belief by social status. The great Samurai would talk about Oni, and how he would like to face one (basically, facing his own imperfections), but basically would live a normal Samurai life, since he could relive his stress by testing a sword.
The student would blame a youkai for steeling his lamp oil.
And so on…
But…
There’s one problem with this. The term Youkai is probably too vague.
There are obvious youkai that constitute a “species”, others that are an “unique creature” and others that are specific events, probably impossible to repeat or happen again.
But before I continue, I would like to say something parallel.
Before the Heian Period, Japan didn’t really have a writing system. So the documents that exist form that time, are in fact, influenced by Buddhism, which was introduced at the same time. With this in mind, the effort of trying to figure out how a youkai was before the Buddhist influence might be a bit frustrating. But, as a folklorist, the evolution of oral tradition and of folklore is obvious, and even if Buddhism has indeed, reshape the concept of youkai, by all means, it’s reshaped, it has evolved.
Furthermore, the use of youkai in Buddhist parabolas is very interesting. “The way of the Tengu”, “The Oni”, and so on are now indistinguishable form Buddhist beliefs, to truly understand youkai one must understand Buddhism and vice versa.
And, with this in mind, how many youkai do you think Buddhism has “created” with these parabolas? Who many have been introduced to Japan in this way? Can you “figure out how they were in Japan before Buddhism”?
Either way, youkai are a window to the Japanese mind. And are intricately place on everyday life in Japan, in a way that trying to understand them by filtering out what you don’t like will result in a crass mistake. When something is taken out of context, it loses it meaning.
To me, if you ask if youkai exist, I have to say: “Yes”. But if you ask how, then my answer would be very complicated. I’ll elaborate on that tomorrow.
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #4 on: 06/09/06 at 08:37:13 » |
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Well, there are to me, possibly several levels of youkai existence.
I don’t know exactly which might be which, but I’ll be that several might be considered as a sort of natural spirits/elementals. The existence of elemental spirits is a widely debated thing by scholars of old. These spirits, they say, exist like human spirits do, in their own reality. They existed and live in a different way, being of a different nature and having a different spiritual evolutionary path. (Tomoe know more about this than I do).
So, it’s no wonder to find these types of creatures a bit all over the world with different names and shapes.
Now, even if a youkai doesn’t exist in a physical shape or form, nor even outside a person(s) head, from the point that the belief in its existence alters the way society runs, who can say that the said youkai doesn’t exist? When asked why certain habits exist and a person answers that it’s because of youkai, well, does the existence or not of youkai really makes a difference? For all means, he exists and reshapes society with it’s presence. He exists.
And finally, the crazy bit. My basis on all this is from an extensive study and meditative processes I am still undergoing about “religion”. I’ve studied a bit and experienced myself a great deal of things.
When someone says that youkai are a personal experience, I’ll have to agree on that. But if he than says something like: “So I have experienced youkai, so my opinion is right and you should believe it instead of experiencing yourself.” Then this is hypocritical behaviour.
Everything is a personal experience. “I like coffee, coffee tastes good without sugar”. This is what my experience says. In a book it says: “Coffee has a characteristically taste, an acquired taste even, it might be pleasurable to some, but too bitter to others”.
Than, if someone says “I don’t like coffee, it tastes like crap” or “If read on a book that it sometimes might taste bad.” what should I say? “You are a filthy bastard, coffee is life!” or “Yes, I’ve read that too on a book, but it’s bullocks, Trust me one this, Coffee is good and you are stupid if you think otherwise” or this “I might not concur with you, since it might be difficult for someone outside the coffee world to understand this, but I must point out that there are more than one way to experience coffee, and more than one type of coffee.”
Everyone sees the world in a different way. The average form this different “realities” is in a way the convention reality.
A lot of religions say that a though might be so intense, so strong, so well planed that it can become part of reality. This is called “Thought Forms” and exist in almost every religion today. “Faith moves mountains”. With faith Jesus was able to walk over water, one of his disciples could barely do it, because his faith was clouded. If someone truly believes in something, this might become reality even for others.
Magic is basically this, the use of tools to concentrate ones thought on a particular event or shape in order to impose their views over conceptual reality.
The Tao, The Original Chaos had everything in potential in it. The stirring of this ocean of potential with a Spear (like in Shinto mythology), the Word of Power (from Genesis) are “action” that brings shape into the potential. The spear and the voice of god are “male” actions and the ocean of stillness is female, the union generates reality.
But if someone could access this “Tao” could he bring into being this that are not? Some say yes… and a too believe that it’s possible, or that it was, when the belief in this was pure and not clouded.
Where is this “Tao”, this principle of existence? Everywhere, like religion says… and like physics say about Dark Energy.
Physics theorises that there is a hidden cache of incredible energy that is homogeneous distributed trough the universe. Measurements are comparative figures, with a norm value, but if this energy exists in the same amount everywhere (even inside the machines created to measure it) it cannot be detected.
Recently there has been speculation that there might be oscillations on this distribution, which could result of magnetic distortions, light bending and temperature oscillations.
Everybody here’s smart so I leave the conclusions of the possibilities to you all.
If this is true, the stress a persons in medieval Japan could slowly bring into existence a creature of though. Slowly, as more people would start believing in it, it would grow in power, until it could became independent of it’s original creature, but still dependent on “belief”.
More next week.
PS – These are only hypothesis given trough different belief systems. Hinduism believes in this (like Buddhism), and so do Shamanistic religions. Japan has a mix of these in everyday life.
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #5 on: 06/09/06 at 17:30:20 » |
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on 06/09/06 at 08:37:13, Kamen wrote:| Now, even if a youkai doesn’t exist in a physical shape or form, nor even outside a person(s) head, from the point that the belief in its existence alters the way society runs, who can say that the said youkai doesn’t exist? When asked why certain habits exist and a person answers that it’s because of youkai, well, does the existence or not of youkai really makes a difference? For all means, he exists and reshapes society with it’s presence. He exists. |
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That is kind of what I was trying to say in my post. Even if it doesn't exist, its cultural impact makes it important enough that it doesn't matter whether it exists or not. The strength of how it affects people's thoughts and actions makes it exist on some level, even if not in a physical, real way.
Things within the realm of the imagination are often more important than things that really exist. For example, my goal is to be a published writer. However, in reality at this point in time I work a boring job at a bookstore. The bookstore, at this point, is real, yet it is the as of yet unreal dream of being published that pushes me to be more informed, more well read, and a better writer. It gives me a direction.
In the same way, a yokai which does not really exist might either positively or negatively affect how a person lives his/her life or thinks about certain things. Because it exerts this influence, on some level it is more important than certain people in their life who don't really affect how this hypothetical person conducts their life.
I hope I am making sense.
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #6 on: 06/10/06 at 02:07:38 » |
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Kamen, I must say I agree with you. You beat me with the coffee example (which is great, btw). I was going to bring Schroediger's cat into this. I think it's an interesting story, and might bring an interesting viewpoint to the debate. So, for those that aren't familiar with the cat's story, here's the whole parabole: A cat is put into a sealed box, complete with machinery that feeds it every day, and what not. Along with this, there's also a complex device, meant to kill the cat at some point. The device is triggered completely randomly. Since the box is sealed, and cannot be seen through, there is no way of telling if the cat is still alive or already dead. A year after the cat's been put into the box, it could still be alive, or it could have been killed the very first day, and there's no way to know. In a sense, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time. It has transcended life and death, and could be said to be immortal.
I think the experience of the supernatural is similar to this - the psyche of another is like Shroediger's box: you know something is there, but you can never be completely sure what it is. When somebody claims he saw a ghost, you can never be completely sure if he realy saw one, if he saw something he misinterpreted as a ghost, or if he is just seeking attention and making things up. You can of course take a position towards their experience, and try to explain to yourself what you were told, and you can even be completely asured your assumed position is right, but you can never know for certain. This is what makes yougai and other creatures of lore immortal in a similar way that Schroediger's cat is immortal - the simple fact that no-one knows what is going on inside somebody else's head - the ultimate Schroediger's box. The reality of life is, simply put, unfathomable. What is real for me, may not be real for somebody else. I, being the atheist I am, can claim the Bible is a semi-historical and semi-mithological account of things that may or may not have happened, while somebody else may believe it's simple historical fact, the Word dictated by God and put down by Sages. The catch is, we're both right. Me in my perception of it, the believer in his. The world and our perception of it is never binary, there's never a Right and Wrong. These are man-made ideas.
So... To me, yougai are not real. I've never seen one, and I believe I never will. But, as I said somewhere else already, to a considerable amount of the Japanese, ghosts and other yougai are very real. And I endeavor to fully accept this. In fact, they are real enough to have an impact on various aspects of the Japanese society - for instance: the pathways in a Japanese garden will be crooked, because it is believed that ghosts can only walk along a straight line, so by curving the paths, you prevent your garden from being haunted by ghosts. Or, one thing I noticed when I was in Japan, most of the japanese cats don't have tails - in order to prevent them from becoming nekomata, as I learned on this site. These are examples of how the yougai of folklore have an impact on the actual society and way of thought, so it would be unfair to say they are not real. If a yougai can affect changes in real life, it can also be said to be real.
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Mouryo
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #7 on: 06/10/06 at 06:06:02 » |
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Okay, time to tell you guys my opinion about youkai.
First I must say that I don`t believe in them, they are just products of the human imagination ( like fairies or any other mythological or folcloric being). They where probably created when the people in former times wheren`t able to explain something which is totally common for us in the present time.
For example the yama- oroshi it was created because the people where not able to explain from where these gusts of wind from the mountain came from or the ami-kiri was surely created to explain why laundry, fishing nets or mosquito nets where destroyed ( I think it where animals).
Others where created to prevent people to do something like aka-name for example it teaches you: If you don`t clean your bathroom the aka-name will come and lick the filth and makes you sick with it`s salivia. The aobozu was surely created to
tell children that they shouldn`t delay on their way home otherwise the ao-bozu will abduct them.
When youkai exist then only in people`s mind.
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #8 on: 06/11/06 at 19:14:28 » |
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What I have been doing until now here was expanding a bit about the ways a youkai can exist without really existing.
There was a reference to atheism. So, despite some don’t believing in God, they must see that the belief of some in it has drastically altered the entire world. In a sense, even for an Atheist, “God” exists, although not as the others say he does.
For Japanese, these strange creatures possess messages, lessons and things to avoid doing or that one must do. The collective name for these creatures is Youkai.
The sacred felling exists and has been studied. When you enter a sacred place, even if of another religion, there’s a feeling of wonder, that we are only a small speck of dusk, that there are things beyond what we think we know. This felling is the same for some as the final game of some sport cup, of the premiere of a long awaited movie saga ending, or the acquirement of a special CD, book or DVD. This exhilaration, this rush makes us feel uplifted. In the clouds, in “heaven”, closer to the sacred.
This same feeling was the one that made man stop in amazement beholding natures most wonderful or dangerous spectacles. A volcano, a mountain, a hill, a raging river, a flood, a tsunami, the sea, the valleys, etc. There’s something special about them, it’s like their have there own spirit, a Kami. So, the bad feelings might be the result of another kind of spirits, evil ones, lowlier and sneaky, something hiding just outside of the hose, the village, of civilization… the forces of Chaos if you must… the youkai. Civilization will fall in ruin if they take control of people. All things sacred and all things decent are offended by them. You might say that for each sacred thing there’s an opposite power. For each aspect of civilization there’s one aspect of Chaos. The shaping of some of the youkai is this exactly.
Must civilizations attribute these powers of chaos to another civilization they know, but Japan were a isolated from other civilizations for most of there history, so the beings of chaos lived in the same islands has they did. Not in the west (the pure land) and not to the East (the rising sun) but just next door. At least, this is what I think explains a lot.
But, could a Japanese call to a Gnome youkai? In my opinion he could, it would make sense for him, and he would understand the implication of such classification.
Could I call monster to a Kappa? Absolutely, it’s the same thing has for the Japanese, just “categories”.
Could a westerner call youkai to a Gnome? No. This is like mathematics. The explanation for the other two cases is that the subject has encountered an object which he what’s to categorise. His culture has already a category prepared for this specific object, so importing a foreign classification must be avoided, since these categories imply cultural references that are very complicated to transpose and the object is simply from a very different culture, and in itself a cultural reference.
Could a European call a Kappa Youkai? Yes, since he is using the classification system naturally used for that creature. Classification already with this specific object in mind.
So youkai only exist in Japan. To the Japanese they are a reality (which is different to physically real).
As for my opinion: As long as someone believes in youkai, they are real.
I believe that a very prude warrior can become a Tengu, and that his nose must be broken in order to return to a more human like nature.
An angry and vengeful person can turn into an Oni, disregarding all laws and standards in order to take bloody and cruel vengeance.
In the valley near the place my father was born there’s a water mill. A Moura lives there. Everybody knows this, the signs are there, but nobody as ever seen her.
In Portugal there’s this saying: “Não acredito em Bruxas, mas que as há, há!” which means: “I don’t believe in witches, but they exist, indeed they do!”
As long as someone believes in something, who can say it doesn’t.
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So, if someone what any sort of clarification on anything please ask. I know I went a bit to fast on the last posts, and that I don’t usually make quotes, but I’ve been rearranging my library, so It might be easier this time to came across the source.
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #9 on: 06/11/06 at 20:10:05 » |
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I was reading through some of the papers I downloaded from JSTOR and I found the way these two different papers interpreted the kamikakushi phenomenon to be pretty interesting. I put them both in this directory here:
http://www.obakemono.com/misc/
The first one takes a more supernaturalist bent, and reports on various incidents of kamikakushi and the weird circumstances they involved. (It also makes it sound like if any supernatural beings are real, tengu have a good chance of being one of them.  )
The second interprets kamikakushi, as recorded in one of Yanagita Kunio's works, as a social/mental phenomenon involving not being able to stay in society any longer. (It's kind of sad.  )
They're both incredibly interesting despite espousing vastly different worldviews.
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #10 on: 06/12/06 at 05:34:16 » |
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I think I read one of those stories in my Folktales of Japan by Yanagita Kunio; about a group of children who are abducted by the kami of the North Wind. They hang on to his tail and are flown to some remote spot. He leaves them there, until the kami's mother comes out to rescue them.
I bet there are many folktales like this in Japan, but where the abducted person doesn't return to civilisation...
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #11 on: 06/12/06 at 11:41:28 » |
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So, all this that I said was that, even if you don’t believe, you know that some believe in it, and as such, their lives, and the way they interact with you is altered because of this.
There’s always the chance that some kinds of youkai exists, or exist in a less mythical shape (science is always finding new species) or as some kind of echo from the past.
And even if someone believes in a youkai in another way that it has been exposed to the public, well, this youkai exists, but only his head, or in the heads of a small group, and can’t really be called youkai, since it doesn’t correspond to the youkai classified in the “consensual reality”/real world.
But how can someone truly say that they know the true nature of youkai?
I’ll stop holding my punches and throw a right-straight. Although I have to say that the speech given at youkaimura is a very interesting and good one, it all comes down to bullocks. The mister over there explicitly says that academic knowledge is meaningless if you don’t feel the things by yourself and try to understand the messages inside them. This is true to all real knowledge, and myths are particularly rich in this type of knowledge. But people feel things differently. His views are his views. Someone else might what to learn about youkai in a more academic way so he can understand them and feel them (draw his own conclusion by interpreting a particular message, or group of messages, codified in the knowledge) by himself. So, in the way, academic knowledge offers a way in which anyone, despite his cultural background, can easily and safely learn about youkai.
When the mister over at youkaimura offers to deliver his interpretation disregarding all others, and above all others, his being hypocritical. “Don’t listen to others (books and such), listen to yourself” and then “I’ll save you trouble, listen to me”.
The childish argument “You’re wrong because I’m the only one who knows this” is a very dangerous thing, and is way over a joke, stupidity and tyranny into a realm of delusion.
I would very much like to go there and creat a topic like this one, but this would be “rude”. Because in his “hose” if I expose a different opinion, even if this opinion was given to me by, lets say, a Kurama Tengu, I would be banned for expressing a different opinion, and as such, offending his life achievements.
Ok, so in Japan there are a lot of people who don’t know Jack Shit about youkai, and don’t even bother. The same goes to the people right in the corner of my town who don’t know anything about Portuguese history and myths. But is this a sufficient argument for me to claim that I know best? There are experts on this; I can’t claim to know more than them. And just because their opinion is different does this mean that they are wrong? They’ve studied it for their entire lives; perhaps they know something more that enables them to have a different position on the subject.
Some cultural references don’t have side notes, because they weren’t supposed to be taken to other cultures. An Aztec sacrifice might seem gruesome and barbaric, but it was a very interesting thing, and has a very deep and serious meaning. If something seems wrong, weird, and gross, maybe you’re just not knowledgeable enough about other cultures to openly speak about them.
Yokai exist in Japan in all manner of shapes and sizes, forms and ways.
Not in the head of new age kids who are only trying to create an escape from reality.
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #12 on: 06/12/06 at 15:24:23 » |
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I would like to add something for those who truly believe in youkais. It’s not the shape, but what we can learn with them, it doesn’t really matter who one believes in them, just that everyone has to admit, that by simply being in this forum they acknowledge youkai as part of existence.
Dismissing a youkai story on the basis of it being “prejudice” might be a bit to simplistic. Saying things like that takes a big old chunk out of any intelligent creature. “Humans are basically good”, but you must realise that to ascend to fame, it’s easier by being really evil. The same to youkai, if they exist. The beautiful story about a flower giving youkai wouldn’t have the same impact as a torso collecting youkai. There’s a human reason in this: be alert. Good things came to those who wait, but nasty things happen to the unprepared. Evil youkais are as plausible as evil humans, such as good youkais and good humans. Disregarding this is taking a part of the true meaning of life: The power to Choose between Good and Evil.
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #13 on: 06/12/06 at 17:33:17 » |
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Well, yes, I have to give you the point that since Hushicho believes in yokai this way then it is meaningful on some level at least to him, and probably also to those that he has deluded.
But this is a very tricky point. And it involves a discussion of folklore and its nature. (I hope this isn't too much of a deviation from the topic at hand.)
Folklore originates with people, so who is to say that he's not just doing the same thing that Toriyama Sekien did when he established the look of what many think of yokai to be. Yet somehow I cannot accept that. Even if the author of Yokaimura wasn't such a hypocritical jerk, even if he was polite and courteous, it still doesn't change the fact that (A) a lot of his information is clearly no more than a misunderstanding of Japanese, as shown by Tengu's posts over the months that this site has been in existance, and (B) his information simply has no other precedence anywhere else in Japanese culture, other than modern anime and manga, which sometimes shares sympathetic views of monstrous things. This is where the problems start. Where does folklore end and just making bullshit up begin? I firmly believe that Yokaimura falls on the "making bullshit up" side of the line, but how far from the line does it fall? That's what's not so easy to express.
If I will be called a traditionalist for wishing to stick with established cultural values for what Japanese folklore is, then so be it. I don't even think this is a bad thing. Some might say I'm missing the point of folklore, that it is always gradually changing with the times. My response to this would be to say that the traditional, Japanese ideas of yokai carry a cultural significance: they either represent the antithesis of ideal Japanese behaviour, or represent a reason not to do a certain thing. EG, the above given example of why you shouldn't let your toilet get too dirty, for fear of the akaname. Or why you shouldn't wander alone by rivers, for fear of kappa. On the other hand, Hushicho's alterations carry no such cultural meaningfulness. Nor do many of the modern versions of much of Western folklore. It is those authors and artists who stick to the original, culturally meaningful versions of folklore, whether it be Western or Eastern - European or Japanese - who create truly meaningful and nuanced works of art, not just a hack Dungeons and Dragons, mass market fantasy.
This is why I believe that, even if Yokaimura's fantasies of sentamental yokai are meaningful and real to them, they are still inferior to the "real" yokai of traditional Japanese culture. This is my opinion on the issue, and I'm sure others will disagree.
Anyway, that's all I have for now. This is a very interesting and stimulating discussion. Hope to find more when I come back.
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| « Last Edit: 06/12/06 at 17:36:51 by Dread Blue » |
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #14 on: 06/12/06 at 18:14:45 » |
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Indeed, I see your point. In truth, I’ve neen seeing it for far too long.
To be honest, I’ve been discredited and banned form several forums because of being a traditionalist. The sentence several times repeated, te sentence that makes me physically sick (or it once did) was: “in folklore and fantasy anything goes”.
Now a days writers are kids. In the old days only people who knew something wrote books. But ever since the introduction of “fantasy”, any snot nosed kid thinks that he can do something like that. Basically (he thinks) it’s just like making a D&D module, wasn’t that what Tolkien did? And the crazy thing is that publishers do publish this drivel. Some of them repeat stupid mistakes like misinformation on medieval warfare and weaponry, forgetting that logistics even exists.
As said in another topic, Tolkien did an extensive search of myths and legends (it was kind of his hobby and partially his job), and adapted certain creatures to his fantastic world. The new writer adapts an adaptation. When Tolkien did what he did, he had a purpose he understood the meaning of “elf” and “dwarf” and as such in all there different facets, and so he was able do draw an excellent story. Now the adaptations off adaptations are made “because it’s cool” or “In fantasy there’s nothing new to do.”
But if I keep in this line of though I’ll just start ranting for a couple of days.
Did you ever notice that it’s easier to talk about something you know nothing about? And that when you know a great deal about a thing it’s difficult to talk about it?
The wise man listen and the idiot talks.
If a certain trait of an youkai originated as a response to a certain social need (if not the youkai in question althougheter) then you can’t take him out of context. He only exists “because”. He is totally dependent of the sayd situation in order to truly exist in it’s fullest.
Making stuff up is ok, except when it’s not… You can only alter or rearrange something after you understand it completely, so you know that you’re not making a mistake. Also you must, above everything else, warn that it’s an adaptation. Even if it’s a collection of reports and you’ve disregard a few, they must be accounted for and explained why they were discarded. So you must acknowledge the people that did the same thing before, and honour the older traditions in which this thing you’re adapting came to be.
It’s true that now a days, old youkai don’t really fit in society, some are old fashioned and connected with things that are out of fashion. Can this youkai be adapted?
Their nature is chaos, the opposition of law and rules. If a law changes, does the youkai change?
My answer is: No.
You can’t rewrite history, at some point a law was made to prevent a chaos, a youkai that take a form as a result. The law died, but the memory of the law and the youkai are inseparable. If a new law is created, and a new situation appears that might result in the appearance of an youkai, then, this is another youkai, it might have the same name (or not), the same shape (or not), the same “modus operandi” (or not), but it’s new, the old one is history, and must be treated with the respect history deserves.
So, ever since we have a written word, we have history, and as such, folklore can still evolve, but we can always look back and see the evolution and point out who it was a few years back. We can’t rewrite the past just because we don’t like it. History is like that.
Can some guy in America change another country folklore? This isn’t even a question; it’s a sad little joke. He can create a small cluster of believers in something that never was, and should have the decency of acknowledging his behaviour and that the vast majority believes in something else. Then, explain to his flock why he was possessed into changing things. In order to be truly enlightened he must present a choice. The “conceptual reality” and his version.
They will choose his version anyway, because “it’s more fun”.
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #15 on: 06/12/06 at 18:48:57 » |
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Well said, and a very good point about the written word and the evolution of folklore. Writing enables us to maintain a "traditional" version of something that could possibly be lost with all the modern changes.
An off-topic remark, but if you're interested in reading exactly how much of a linguistic and folkloric genius Tolkien was, Tom Shippey's Author of the Century is a great book to read.
I agree; when writing fiction based on folklore the first thing the reader should see is a disclaimer noting that his or her version is somewhat altered, and encouraging the reader to look into the actual folklore themselves. That is what good folklore-based fiction should do: inspire a desire toward knowing about the original, traditional folklore.
And I think the old yokai which existed in response to situations or laws which are no longer around are some of the most fascinating. Because the stories of these yokai inform us about the way things were in the past. Yokai are like a shadow cast by historical culture, the outline of which shows the shape of how things used to be. If you take away this significance, all you have is something that's interesting just because it's weird or different. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But knowing the significance of a yokai or any folkloric creature or apparition makes it a more deep and meaningful experience.
I'll be the first to tell you I don't know enough about yokai. Yet to me the learning experience is half of the fun.
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kurent
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #16 on: 06/13/06 at 14:32:26 » |
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To round up the JRRT off-topic: yeah, I too was amazed to find that Tolkien didn't just write cool stuff that we would read as kids, but that he was way much more than that, and that every single aspect of folklore and linguistics in his books is thoroughly backed up by what might just be the knowledge of one of the greatest folklorists/classical linguists of his times if not ever. Respect to the man.
There was talk about tradition and development of youkai. Leaving anime and that stuff aside, there's at least one story I know of that is a classical Japanese obake story that's made into the mindframe of today's Japanese. Here goes: A high-schooler will be approached by what would appear to be a stuningly beautiful woman. She hides her face behind something, apparently this varies in different parts of Japan. It can be a fan or more commonly a scarf or handkerchief. She asks the high-schooler, if he/she thinks she's beautiful, and will insist until she gets a positive reply. At this point, she will reveal her face, to shock the kid by the fact that her mouth streches from ear to ear. She'll invariably ask if he/she still thinks she's beautiful.
She's usually reffered to as the grinning woman, warau onna. Ask a Japanese friend about her.
Now, as far as I know, the premise of this story is ancient. As far back as in Heian, there were similar stories told. The interesting thing about this exact high-school spook story is, that it would appear to be an ancient story that's adapted itself to new times. It's not told as something that's happened "a long long time ago, in a land far far away", it's usualy told as something that's happened to a friend's friend, last week, just a couple of blocks away from the school where it's told. In a sense, it's an urban legend, but it's also a development of a much older story. In my view, even if you are a die-hard traditionalist, this story should still be fascinating.
And I've also got a question for you guys to ponder on.
Kamen, you said youkai were the embodiments of ancient wisdoms - i.e. "do not walk along rivers, lest a kappa get you and do unspeakable things to your digestive system" being basicaly a coulorful warning that riversides might be dangerous venues to walk along in any case. This, to me, seems a completely feasable explanation, or one of them for youkai. So, if youkai of old are embodiments of rules of old, are there youkai for new rules? Could the monsters of urban legends be considered the youkai of today? By this, I don't mean just warau onna - she's obviously a variation of an ancient story. I mean monsters that appear in horror movies - like a psychopath that kills careless school girls, or a monster that kills over the phone, or even the notorios Ring video tape - could these be considered a sort of youkai? In my view, they could. What do you guys make of it?
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Kamen
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #17 on: 06/13/06 at 15:03:07 » |
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Kurent:
In a sense I guess so, except that in some of those cases the things are openly known for being fabrications. Also, you don’t need youkai to do evil, or good, you have people. In the old days it could be difficult to believe someone would snap and kill her children and freeze them in a ice box; or kill her husband and cook part of him to serve to his kids as some kind of revenge. No, these people would surely be called monsters, and had a funny name attached to them like “Son of Sam”. People stopped believing in the good of other people, now it’s easier to believe in the evil of others. If something sick, discussing, perverted or absurd is going one, it’s not a youkai, it’s some kind of criminal/crazy person.
It’s sad, but it’s true.
Also there’s that thing about the projection of ones fears. In the times of old, you would project your fears to a foreign object, normally monsters and foreigners themselves (that lived in a different society, in a different incomprehensible order, and as such, chaos) anything as long as it lived or existed very far away. “Here there are dragons” was written in maps, and for a good reason. Now, with maps and electric light...
Now people project their fear to the inside. Depression and all kind of illnesses arise form this. So, the thought form, the monster that would arise from this mental stress will arise form inside the person and take its place. People are being devoured from the inside by themselves.
But that’s why the kurent and the Careto are important…
And so, youkai are a part of history. Even if one is discovered to really exist, it will be studied, dissected and classified in one of the natural realms, and as such, lose its youkai status.
EDIT:
Then again there might be some kind of “new youkai”, like that warau onna (or is it a yurei?), but… there are a lot of people who don’t believe. These youkais will be part of pop culture and not main stream culture, so it won't change drastically society. People won’t believe in them like they used to believe in the old ones, there will always be more willingness to believe in something soothing and “as far away as possible”.
Yurei are a different subject, and people are more willing to believe in them. Ghosts are a very different subject. The western and Buddhist point of view is getting stronger; the old Shinto belief in permanent death is being shaken by the search of a way to live forever. The other world, reincarnation and spirits bring with them the possibilities of ghosts.
Most of these new youkai are very personal, like the one that opens pop up windows in your pc, or leaves the toilet sit up. You can believe that it’s a youkais doing, but some people might disagree completely.
But if the great major of the society believes in them, then, for me they are youkai in the academic sense of it. If not… well, its youkaimura all over again… it might be or not.
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| « Last Edit: 06/13/06 at 16:11:44 by Kamen » |
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Dread Blue
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #18 on: 06/13/06 at 21:55:12 » |
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I have actually heard of this warau onna, but under a different name. My memory is failing me... but I think the name started with an "s".
Even if a traditional story or lore is adapted to a modern setting, as long as it retains the cultural meaningfulness, as this warau onna story does, I believe there's nothing wrong with it. Actually, that's exactly what I was saying when I said that I respect writers who can incorporate myth and folklore into their work and retain the cultural meaningfulness. I guess this also extends to those who spread urban legends. Though they're not as fascinating, in my own point of view, as the traditional versions, they are still very interesting and worth thinking about.
Come to think of it, I think this story was in the "Yuurei Info" thread a while back. But it's too late now, for me to go searching there. Perhaps tomorrow if no one else has done it yet.
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Tengu
Grand High Pinko Kami
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Re: The Nature of Youkai
« Reply #19 on: 06/13/06 at 22:01:30 » |
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warau-onna = kuchisake-onna
Alas, you-know-who got to her already.
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